Workforce 2.0: AI Transformation

Wade Erickson (00:11):

Welcome to another episode of Tech Leaders Unplugged. I'll be your host today, Wade Erickson. And I got Carlos in the background running the switchboard. And today our topic is Workforce 2.0 AI transformation, how AI automation workflows and will boost productivity. And my guest is Pascal Weinberger. He's actually in Switzerland right now. So we have a international conversation today. I don't speak Swiss German though, so I'll have to keep it in English. So we're talking a lot about you know, how automation and AI and RPA and all of these things that have been around for some time are affecting the worker today. And so Pascal is I'll let him introduce himself, but he's a longtime entrepreneur started at a very early age. So we'll talk a little bit about his entrepreneurial journey as well as you know, he's in an exciting space. He's been doing this data science and AI stuff for quite some time. So without further ado, Pascal, why don't you introduce yourself and then we'll talk a little bit about Bardeen and what, what, what's differentiating you in this automation space and ai.

Pascal Weinberger (01:32):

Cool. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. Super excited to be on the show. And yeah, so bit about myself. Like my background's actually machine learning, computer vision originally been working, as you mentioned in the AI space for about 10 years now. And about three years ago we started the journey with badin ai. What we're trying to set out to solve is really this adoption problem of automation and RPA. So, you know, I, I mean, you know, since about a year or something, like, since ChatGPT has conquered the world, I would say everyone's talking about ai. And, and, and I find that a lot of people are wondering like, you know, how can I make this useful for myself? Like, how can I use this technology to really make AI something that can boost my own productivity remove all the, you know, friction and repetitive and, you know, frankly annoying workflows that we all do on, on a day-to-day basis for, for my workflows. And that's really what we're trying to do with badin. We're trying to make AI accessible for everyone, make it so that you know, everyone out there can leverage the most up-to-date models, the most exciting technology for their own benefit to really boost their own productivity. And we do that as a browser extension. And it's kind of like the next generation RPA tool, if you want to think about it that way can dive more into use cases and so on later. But that's kind of on a high level what we're working on.

Wade Erickson (03:07):

Great. And so given your journey, you've had this AI and machine learning in your background in data science. Adoption is probably the most critical challenge of automation of any kind. You know, I see, you know, being a part of the RPA world for over 10 years now dealing with Automation Anywhere, blue Prism, UiPath, having some projects in there and then, you know, along came citizen development with power tools and, you know, low code, no code, and, and, and then now mixing automation with programming. I mean, these are areas are all kind of coming together in, in what you are doing in a very interesting way. And adoption is the critical piece because, you know, older guys like me, although we came up in the computer age automation, you know, other than writing some macros and some spreadsheets or something like that, the average group in my generation really has not, it's largely been manual processes with a little bit of apps and automation tossed in there. And really, I think technology has really matured to the point where the, the, the worker is in the driver's seat. You know, you could write some low-code, no-code apps, build some automation to use those apps all at the same time and getting, you know, 'cause right now there's about three or four tools you'd need to have, you know, to make all of that work in a combined effort. Tell me a little bit about how your, your tool and your approach helps to alleviate some of that Multi-Tech stack and multiple ways of having to think about tech.

Pascal Weinberger (04:55):

Yeah, it's a, it's a great point you're making. I think maybe if we like, take a step back to like, you know, originally why we started the, the company and you know, as, as you pointed out, there's, there's many RP tools out there. So, well-known problem I I haven't met a single, you know, person who works with SaaS apps who does not want to automate their work. I think it's like, if you talk to anyone, they go like, yes, I have so much annoying work to do. I would love to automate or delegate for that matter more for them doing. So I think it's a well understood problem. Now the question is, why don't we all do it already? Why don't we all have, you know, most of what we're doing automated, and I think that really boils down to a few different problems. One is that over the last 10 or so years, we've really witnessed this great unbundling in the tech space, right? So like you know, famously everything comes in cycles. So like for some time there were many different products and platforms we were using. They all get bundled into these like office bundles. And then now they got over the last 10 years unbundled, again, like I have my different provider for email, I have my database provider, like a table notion, whatever. I have my communications provider Slack or like whatever teams, different services I'm using, I have my database for my whatever. If I work in sales, my CRM system, I have my copywriting tool that I may be using to help me write co like better emails and so on and so on, which kind of like ends up with this interesting state where if you're anything kind of like in my, you know, like me, I have like 50 tabs open at the browser like all the time and like 50 probably being an understatement. And I find myself, and this is really where the idea for budding came from. I find myself spending a lot of time essentially being the router between my apps. So I copy based data from, you know, my whatever data base where I get data from into my notion table, and then I copy paste similar data into my email when I write the outreach email and so on and so on, which essentially leaves us in this weird position where we almost have to work for the SaaS apps that we're using instead of them working for us. And that's really kind of the big fundamental problem I think that, that we see with those apps. And, and that introduces all sorts of issues, right? Like a, it's a huge time waste. Like the time I'm spending copy pasting data around is not necessarily productive. It's also super annoying because I have to essentially you know, like remember what I was doing at every given point in time. I'm changing context all the time. I forget things like, you know, we're all human. We all forget to do things like I may have my process that I need to follow where I update. You know, I had a sales call I update in this year and system every now and then I forget it because, you know, happens now I have incomplete data in my systems that costs the organization money because there's lost opportunities or things that aren't happening. It introduces all sorts of friction and problems. And then fundamentally you may ask like, why isn't there anything that does all that for me? And when we kind of started looking at this problem three years ago, the best analogy we found was really kind of like web research engines. I mean, you might remember at least like from stories like the times where you had to navigate to a website and you had to remember which website to navigate to, and then go in the tab, wait for the whole thing to load and then find a piece of information that you're looking for, like Yellow Pages, for example. Now no one does that anymore. Now you just go to, you know, your favorite search engine, whatever that may be, and you type it in there and they go do that work for you. They go and like they've indexed all the web and they go find the relevant information for you. So you have this one stop destination, and then they delegate essentially the information query across the web. And I think the similar thing has to happen with, you know, what you may refer to as the deep web. So it's like the web that is behind login walls, essentially. So all your databases, all your email, all your, you know, stack channels, you name it. Where I, I I get to like one place where I have kind of the central truth of central source of truth for like, what do my processes look like? How do I move data around almost like these macros in Excel, but like across your different web apps. And then I just go there and like, you know, click the button for the automation or like tell the thing what to do for me. And it then goes similar to the search engines and the web space then goes and then and, and kind of like delegates the work across diff different SaaS apps, thereby removing friction, saving you time. It also helps you streamline workflows across an organization. One thing that we see as a huge value add that frankly we didn't think about when we started building the product is, is if you have like a team of say, sense 10 salespeople, they all should have a fairly similar workflow. If you can give them like a button to click versus teach them a playbook on how to do things it it, it vastly reduces the complexity and vastly reduces the amount of errors and, and, and amount of different kind of like tools and structures that you have to deal with in the organization. So, so, so that's a huge value add. And yeah, so I think that's kind of like ultimately the, the, the thing that we're trying to solve for is like really turn this whole SaaS universe upside down and make it work for us instead of us working for the different tools and removing the friction of having to juggle all this stuff around. So then like, you know, the big question becomes like, how do you do that? Right? Like, it's kind of an obvious problem statement. Everyone we talk to says like, yes, we want to solved yet we find very little actual products tackling this. Now, first of all, the big like aggregate our platforms there not necessarily incentivized to solve this problem because they want you to like pull, they want to pull all these different services into themselves, right? Like, you know, the suites and office suites of this world. They're, they're like, oh, if you'd use all our tools, like, you know, from email calendar, everything all on our platform, then it becomes much easier because it's all inside the same platform and so on. But the reality is almost no one I talk to actually does that. You almost always pick and choose the best in class products, which makes sense as a consumer to do, but then that leaps in with this distributed system and they're all kind of not trying to solve it. There are some products that solve this for the backend, so like Zapier for example, and the lot of other companies in that space that solve this for this purely trigger based automation. So something happens in app one now do something in app two and three it's great solution. Unfortunately that maybe solves 10, 20% of the work that we actually do that's purely reactive. Most of the valuable work we do is proactive. So I have to make some, you know, decision or a micro decision where I say like, oh, that like, you know, weight is a great prospect to reach out to. I'm on waits LinkedIn profile, I don't want to reach out to everyone on LinkedIn. <Laugh>, I only want to reach out to wait, and now I have this long tail of copy pasting, link waits information into my CRM system, writing the customer's outreach email and whatever Gmail or whatever I'm using, like, you know, sharing the profile in the sales Slack channel so my team knows about it and writing the outreach email to you and so on. So I think that's, that's kind of really the reality of what we're going for. That's a bit, bit of a high level overview, but happy to dive into any detail.

Wade Erickson (12:26):

So you know, whether, you know, doing RPA bot and, you know, designing that process, a lot of times, you know, in the discovery process when you're doing that at a company in an enterprise, you know, trying to get consensus on what the process is is a big battle in the beginning, right, or, or like in the case with like logic gear, we build test automation and so building good test cases and structuring those test scripts is, is really core to the efficient build out of the test scripts. And so that kind of goes back to really about good workflow process design and development. Can you tell me a little bit about some of the best practices that you've come across? Just for somebody to step back? I mean, earlier in that the previous piece there, you talked about all these different component pieces and you having to be in the middle of stitching that all together. Obviously. I think the underlying challenge is really about process architecture and, and linking those together as nodes of activity, whether they're proactive triggers, you're going to have probably a mix. Tell me a little bit about, cause I think that's really the foundation, if you can get that figured out, stitching together all the pieces through a good tool like yours, I think just becomes a better, you know, easier flow. What are the best practices you've had in stepping back? I mean, obviously there's discovery in play that you gotta start out with first, but eventually you gotta sit down and sketch this out, I would imagine in a tool or something to say, really, I need to touch these three things to really kind of make that automation be repeatable.

Pascal Weinberger (14:02):

Yeah, it's a great question. So I think the, when we, when we first launched the first version of the product, we assumed that people would be able to figure this out by themselves.

Wade Erickson (14:12):

Which is very rare actually, which is wrong.

Pascal Weinberger (14:15):

Yeah. Like it's, we kind of learn the hard way that like, it's not like it's, it happens. There are some organizations, some people right, that like, they know exactly what they want. They like know exactly how to do this. They have some, you know, technical expertise. They, they can figure out how to use like a no-code tool like ours. We have this visual builder, you can kind of drag and drop these building blocks together to build this automation for you in a relatively like easy no-code way, but you still kind of have to dissect what you're doing into this like, kind of like recipe almost. Like, first I do this, then I use the output of that to do the other thing in this third app, and then I need to update the record in this database, right? Like this type of thinking. We found this actually pretty rare with most people. So what we then kind of set out to do is we're like, okay, how do you solve, like we built an infrastructure, we built all the integrations we built, made it po, we built a pipeline, if you will. Like, we made it possible to automate these things. Now it's like, how do you make it as easy as possible for the end user to actually use them? First of all, we invested a lot of time and energy into pre-building best in class workflows. So basically we, at this point, we have a user base of roughly 200,000 people. So, so we got a lot of input from people that they're like, we want to automate X, Y, Z this thing across these apps. And so we just listened to them, kind of did a big Excel sheet and, and we're like kind of ranking them. And we are still kind of building all the workflows that we get, just ask from our users and customers and say like, we need to automate this. We're like, great, you're not the first person to ask for this. You know, then like, we have this stack rank of pre-built automations we're building, and we just kind of work off that list at this point. We have 1,200 plus pre-built automations in the product that we just ship with the product with. So if what you're doing happens to be one of those workflows, you don't need to do any building. You just click the button, you authenticate with the services if you need to, and you're good to go. That's kind of like best case scenario, right? Like there's pre-built thing, you just click the button, you're done. In reality, some of the things that you're doing are slightly different, right? You may be, we have the almost same workflow, but you might write into an Airtable, and I love notion, I write into Notion database, but the rest of our workflow is exactly the same. So now I can take a prebuilt template and make it super easy for you to modify it. And again, there's no, no quote builder, and that way I didn't have to do this like blank sheet of paper problem that you draw out in the beginning. We have to understand like, what is the actual workflow and process. I can take something that's existing and slightly tweak it to my, you know, needs that, you know, all great and good. What we found, like most people land into this kind of third bucket where it's like nothing really prebuilt. It's too far away from the stuff that, you know, we already have. And it's somewhat like a small niche use case that like really only a few people may have. Then this is where like AI really comes in for us which is what we call magic boxes. Basically like a you can imagine almost like a Google search bar. You type into it what you want to automate, and then it does a few things. It checks in the prebuilt catalog. Is any of the prebuilt automation semantic similar to what you're trying to do? If yes, great just surface that you're good to go. You're kind of part of the first or second category. If not, we will then go in and try to magically build this automation for you. Now, that's a really difficult task to do because the complexity explosion, right? There's like many different inputs, outputs, all the different connections between those. If you've ever been into any, any of these RPA tools, like you mentioned automation anywhere you iPath before, there's about a gazillion billion different ways in which you can build automations and Right. So like building a semantically correct automation, it actually makes sense and compiles, now you're not writing code, but you're essentially writing code, right? So like it has to compile. And, and it has to make sense. That's, that's really difficult to do. And that's what we're investing a lot of our research efforts into is how can we build our own, like how can we build a language model that understands the intent of what the user is doing and really build the right automation for the right user, given the right context. And that's really, I think, a bigger part of the innovation that we're driving with badin is this making, we call it for some time making automation as easy as texting your friend, right? It's just like, if you're able to describe it to your coworker or to your assistant, or to your chief of staff or whoever you would delegate it to, if you're able to describe it to them in a short email or text message, chances are we can automate it if we have the right integrations. And then kind of the third part of it, and, and it also kind of d draws into this discovery phase that you just talked about is that's still more of a research project. We haven't fully shipped this live to our customers yet, but it's kind of the big pillow piece that we're working on right now is essentially proactive automation. I don't know if you guys know, Honey, the Chrome extension, if you've ever come across this, it's one of the, I think, most beautifully designed user experiences out there for Chrome extensions. It's essentially for, for the ones who don't know about it, it's a, a shopping assistant. So like if you go and you on a checkout page of any website, they will automatically search for coupon codes for you and apply the coupon code for you. And then it comes up with this little friendly popup. It's like a dollar. I can, and like pops up, it's like, Hey, you know, wait, I can save you money. Just click here to apply and we'll add the coupon code to your checkout and save you and dollars to, to do this. And, and that, that's really the user experience. We want to aim for automation. It's basically like you install barde in the future. You kind of go in, do your normal work, do your copy pasting from different tools, switching tabs, moving things around, like whatever it is you're doing in sales, prospecting, recruiting, project management, we see many different application areas. And at some point when we start detecting a repeatable and b automatable patterns of usage that you have all fully privacy preserving in your browser, no sensitive data leaves it everything kind of runs in your browser. Then we, you know, want to pop pop up similar to this honey experience and go like, Hey, Wade, we've detected an automatable workflow. Is this what you're doing? And then kind of show you the skeleton of what we've built for you, giving you the chance to verify and add it, adjust, you know, the prebuilt automation. And I think that's really where the future of automation will be, is really just kind of like, you know, now at this point, the word co-pilot is quite overused. But years ago no one called things co-pilot and like we kind of wanted to go for this co-pilot branding, but then it's hard to compete with Microsoft if they call it, I think co-pilot. So but that's really kind of the way to think about it, right? It's like this genie sitting on your shoulder looking over what you're doing and it like identifies that like, oh, what you're doing here is automatable. I just pre prebuilt your automation for you. And I think that really makes automation accessible. And then we would be in a world where you no longer have to do this active discovery phase of like trying to figure out what's the skeleton, what's the process that I need to do. But you just go about your normal day-to-day work and the app itself learns from your behavior. So that's really, I think like what, what the solution for the problem would look like.

Wade Erickson (21:38):

Yeah. I think that's a great approach. You know, because you have an, whether it's any habit that has to be built you have to have some kind of a, a nudge support system to do that. And you know, we get, we go about our day with our old patterns and habits, and you want to force something like automation to be a part of your new habit. You need a tool like that to say, Hey, remind, hey, this seems to be a repeatable process. Why don't we help you build that? And that will now the dependency and the habits would be built with an assistant like that, whether it's a dieting tool or anything like that, you know, it's all about really getting the technical assistance. I think that really does change things for people individually. Now, is your approach to really do this as a B2B or a B2C or a combination of both? Because I really see both models kind of working because people can use this in their home life as well as their work life, you know?

Pascal Weinberger (22:37):

Yeah. So like, I think we, we've always focused on automating people's work lives, so all the integrations we have and all the prebuilt automations, you'll see them centered around, you know, sales tools, recruiters, project managers, data research analysts, e-commerce businesses, founders, entrepreneurs, that kind of universe of apps is what we integrate with. We don't integrate with any of your consumer apps or, you know, TikTok or any of that stuff. I think that's, I'm sure there's good automations to be built that that's not what we want to focus on. Now, having said that, our now having said that, our go-to market approach is kind very much like product-led growth approach. So we don't have a sales team. We don't really, you know, go out to cold outreach to companies and try to do the top-down sales approach. Again, we're trying to become like the, you know, friendly automation tool for the end user. So the go-to market motion for us is people discover us through pre-built SEO pages, blogs, you know, phones like this, social media colleagues recommended, anything like that. And then they onboard themselves and ideally if they find value of the tool, they will share it with their colleagues, they will share it with their friends, with their colleagues, they will share it you know, across the team and so on. And then it becomes a team motion gets adopted at the workplace and then ultimately grow within an organization. But it's a very much like product led growth kind of buttons up go to market motion as opposed to your traditional RPA, which is very much like sell to the CEO, CTO, CIO push it down the organization, which actually, like when we, you know, talk to companies that did that, there's a lot of friction with that because I, as the end user who I get my boss tells me to automate something, now I'm scared. Like, I don't want to be automated, I don't want to lose my job. Right.

Wade Erickson (24:30):

And that's the problem with RPA tools.

Pascal Weinberger (24:33):

It's, it's a big problem. And it's a big problem also with AI in general, that people are just scared, I think, rightfully so. If, if, if the tool is meant to replace me as a, as a worker, that's not, that's not great like job, right? So like versus we are trying to much more become your.

Wade Erickson (24:53):

More valuable on their own.

Pascal Weinberger (24:54):

Exactly. We're trying to remove the friction from your work so you can be more productive and you can contribute more value to the organization. As, and it's much more like, you know, making everyone an automation superhero versus, you know, making the CIO an automation superhero who can then replace the entire organization with bots. That's really not what we're trying to do. And we take a much more kind of like end user friendly product, that growth approach of this.

Wade Erickson (25:19):

Great, this has been a fantastic conversation. I've been in, you know, really intrigued by this for a long, long time and trying to get, you know, the worker to leverage tools that help them as, as opposed to be mandated and, you know, change management challenges. I'd like to pivot a little bit away from the topic and just talk about you, you have a very interesting background. Noticed that you went to school for a little while college and, and then jumped at an early age into your first startup. You know, and with the challenges in the us so with cost of education being a hundred to $2,000 before you're finished, you obviously went straight to it and did a lot of self-study. And lord knows the, the world has got tons of virtual learning opportunities for people to learn to code and do things that you did. Can you tell me a little bit about maybe some of the earlier things in your life that really encouraged you to have the confidence to go out and start your first business at what, 19 or 20? And, I mean, cause I think most 19 or 20 year olds, they're just worried about the next video game that comes out or something. So tell me about what that, you know, was it your parents, was it some mentor? How, you know, what caused you to say at 20, you know what, I can do this, I can take on the guys twice my age, you know,

Pascal Weinberger (26:41):

That's, I don't think I ever wanted to take on price. I think it's a, it's a very good question. I think about this a lot myself, kind of reflecting on this question. I I don't have a great answer for you to be honest. I, I was in a very lucky situation that like, I didn't actually go to college in the us I was in Germany and in Germany, education is free. It's not really free, but it's, compared to the US you can think about it, it's free. So, so I really didn't have the financial pressure to do it. For me it was much more just like I always wanted to do things. Like I was never, you know, I was always this like super annoying kid in school who would like, not just want to sit around and like, you know, passively consume books and, you know, teach us content. I always want to, like, I'm much more of a, like learning by doing type of person. Now, where do I have that form is a great question. I don't really know. I think the one thing that I would contribute or attribute a lot of this form is I did a lot of kind of like science internships very early in high school. That was just purely curiosity driven at that point. And, and there I met a lot of great mentors and you know, some professors from that university that, that they had an entrepreneurial background. And at that time, my goal was to become a professor with work in research, theoretical physics on neurosciences, kind of understand how the brain works. And then in particular, one professor who I will not name here for his own sake, but he literally was like being a professor is like being a professional kind of begar. Like you always have to apply, like for grants, try to get money from somewhere and so on. And at that time, like go, you know, organizations like Google and so on emerged that they were doing all the interesting research in AI and machine learning and, and so on. So then I was like, well, that should start trying to build something like that. And yeah, and that, that, that's really been it for me. I think the, it's not for everyone. I think there's a lot of like, you know, even in Badin, like my co-founder has a PhD. He's done a very traditional academic career before he became a founder. Now with me we have a lot of people in our team that have gone through, you know, great education at company, at universities like Stanford and so on. So, so, so I don't think you can build amazing technology necessarily without this. I always thought about this, you know, like everyone does what they're best at. And I don't think of myself as the academic scholar type person. I'm much more of a like doer. And then I work with people who have gone through the, you know, 10, 15 years academic careers to learn the necessary skills to build companies like what we are doing now. Like, I couldn't do this all by myself, obviously. So that's I think really the, the thing, it always kind of like, you know, grass is always cleaner on the other side. I sometimes think that I maybe should have gone through the academic route and done the PhD and instead of like spending my, you know, twenties all working. But yeah, you never know.

Wade Erickson (29:38):

So my takeaway on that is curiosity. And doing, just go after it. You learn while you're doing instead of just spend a lot of time learning and then.

Pascal Weinberger (29:51):

And maybe I'll add one thing. So I, I think the one thing that always kind of hit me is like, people are afraid to fail. And like that, that, like all my friends now, you know, they, they finished school. They, they now, some people I went to high school with, they, they now did their PhDs and so on. They want to start companies, but they talk about it a lot. They never do it. Yeah. They don't do it because they're scared that what, what, what happens if I fail? Like, I have a job here, I have a job there, I have an internship there. Like, I don't want to give it up and then be left with nothing if I fail. The interesting thing is what I've learned, like actually almost everyone who even if you fail your market value becomes much higher. You've actually shown you can do things yourself, even if they don't work out. You have real world experience, you build a great network. You, you know, unless obviously you do very stupid things, which sometimes people do, but like, then, you know, it's bad anyways. But if, if you all always act with the right conscience, you do the right thing, then even if you fail, you've had so much experience that most people never in their entire career get. So your market value goes much higher. And like even if you then after you failed, want to go find a different job, I I, I ended up having much better job offers than I really should have had at, you know, different points in, in my career just because I tried things. And I think that's the big thing most people miss, is that they think that if they fail, they're left with nothing. I think the truth is if you've, even if you fail, you fail forward.

Wade Erickson (31:23):

Well, and, and I, you know, whenever I talk to young people, I say, expect to probably fail on your first one. The probability and the statistics are not in your favor. So if 90% of the businesses are failing in their first couple years, chalk it up is that's just average. And, and you have to at least dreams are never, you know dreams stay in your head. You got to act on these things. And so it's curiosity, courage, leverage people around you, mentorship, I mean, these is what all the books tell you to do. And it's just amazing how few will just go out there and step on the ledge and jump and, and see what happens, you know?

Pascal Weinberger (32:00):

Yeah. And ask for help. I think it's always something that everyone tells you to do. Yet I almost like, no one I really know does this. I've done it a lot. Like I've done stupid cold outreach emails to people I should never have talked to for where I was in my career. And you know what? The success rates are way higher than you would ever think because most people who are in good places, they've gotten there because other people help them. And now they want to pay, like most people, again, it's not everyone.

Wade Erickson (32:30):

They want a mentorship back. When you're in your fifties and sixties, it's all about helping the young people.

Pascal Weinberger (32:36):

And they're having so much fun with it, obviously you have to be nice. You have to always be grateful for it. You have to try to help them too. Right? Like, I think one thing that I learned is always like, you know, give, give, give, ask, like always like try to provide value before you ask for anything in return. Yeah. And, and with these very simple tips, like it's not rocket science, like most people are willing to help, and then it becomes a numbers game. Like if you're trying to get access to, you know, logic gear, like I'm sure there's 20 people who can maybe get you an intro, like ask all 20 of them, then you need 5% success rate and you get it. You know, like that's, I think the way to think about it.

Wade Erickson (33:14):

Well, you know, we're, we're at time. We might've gone over a bit, but that's okay. I really appreciate your time you spent with us. This is, again, a, a great area. I think it has huge, huge potential to support internationally, the workforces and productivity. And it's, this is the way that people learn to embrace these technologies and, and hopefully companies and the governance and all that stuff. They'll start to open up and allow more of this kind of citizen development to come in organically into the organization versus like a top down, like you said. We have one more show this week I wanted to introduce. If you could give me a little bit of time to introduce our next show. It's on Friday, January 5th. Rik Vishwanath, I hopefully pronounce that right. VP of engineering at HubSpot. Very well-known company that and this is the VP of engineering, so we're going to be looking at really deep diving into platform infrastructure innovations. Obviously a company like HubSpot has huge innovation in infrastructure challenges to support just like a Salesforce or any of these other big platforms as a service. And so we're going to talk to him on Friday, same time 9:30 AM Pacific time. And again, thank you so much for your time and I am definitely going to go load your tool. Hopefully there's some trials there I can play with. And this is this will be fun because I think it's a great way to start small. And sometimes these other tools, they're, they're so big, they're, you know, tough to get the courage to start, you know, learning 'em, you know, versus this you build up at, at your own pace. So that sounds great.

Pascal Weinberger (34:52):

Yeah. Awesome.

Wade Erickson (34:54):

We'll see all on Tech Leaders Unplugged on Friday. Have a great day.